Differences

This shows you the differences between two versions of the page.

--- 2016_eu_hatespeech_ban [2024/05/23 17:32] – created admin
+++ 2016_eu_hatespeech_ban [2024/12/08 17:55] (current) – removed 89.205.142.102
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-WESTCOAST-IDEALS - FREE
-MEDIA CASE - INTRODUCTION
-Ideals ...
-While the other movements of the 50s and 60s had produced
-tangible results, the hippie movement did not (if not
-counting the Woodstock festival).
-Thus, in the 70s some put their hopes in technology.
-They started developing new technologies for the alternative
-press, community radio stations, home-brew computer clubs
-and video collectives.
-So...
-o Social media is a giant phenomenon, but not entirely free!
-o The state of free publishing ... free anywhere, free format?
-  like there is a need for basics, charity, nonprofits,
-  there is a place for 'free media': the edge, the porn of info
-  and yes! good thing if social media can serve as a topic
-  switch board for the cybermind. Always media & bubble aware
-With these ideals... Where are we??
--04-16
-o latest comment, on 'corporatism', in west, on status page
--04-20
-A leading journalism advocacy group said
-world press freedom (check wiki index 2014 page)
-deteriorated in 2015, especially in the
-Americas, warning of "a new era of propaganda".
-o Read short report on World Press Freedom Index 2015
-===
--08-08
-o latest comment, on auditory hallucination (refuting
-  the leading theory of will by Chris Frith with a synth!)
-  on status page
-  see status notes 5 and 6
--08-12 starting this day
-  WE ARE AN UNOFFICIAL SUBSTITUTE
-  for worldpress.org headlines Europe
-  which we call world FREE press headlines
-===
-skip to more recent
-found 2016-09-04
-concerning the case of our declining traffic,
-due to our status at twitter, google, and
-the comments on that on this site ...
-this changes everything:
-dark forces denigrate environmentalists as terrorists
-(a practice well-known to westcoast, we ran a website devoted to this naming)
-snippet from https://gmwatch.org/latest-listing/1-test/10959-immoral-maize-definitive-account-of-chapela-affair
-The contact person given was Rich Levine, who previously
-worked for Bivings as a Monsanto web-guru. [49] The president
-of V-fluence is Jay Byrne, who has over 15 years experience
-in public relations, campaign communications and government
-affairs. [50] He was also the former chief internet strategist
-and director of corporate communications for Monsanto, where
-he spent a quarter of his time monitoring the web for rogue
-web- and activist sites. [51] In 2001, Byrne gave a presentation
-to a PR conference called 'Protecting Your Assets: An Inside
-Look at the Perils and Power of the Internet'. It gave an insight
-into Monsanto's use of the internet. 'A website alone won't
-protect your brand', Byrne told the audience, therefore it was
-necessary to 'Take Action, Take Control'. Ways to do this
-included: 'Viral marketing and other dialogue opportunities,
-monitoring and participation'.
-One PowerPoint slide showed 'Monitoring' for Monsanto which
-included 'Daily monitoring of over 500 competitor, industry,
-"issues group" websites; Daily monitoring of 50+ key listservs,
-usergroups and chat rooms; Technology monitoring and updates
-including search engine programs and legal monitoring'.
-Another chart on the PowerPoint presentation gave the difference
-before and after taking control of the internet to rig a search
-engine to go from finding hits they did not want to finding hits
-they did want if someone was searching for 'GM foo'’. Favourable
-hits included: 'Glossary of biotech terms; AgBioWorld; AgCare;
-FDA; Biotech Knowledge Center; CFFAR; Food Biotech Center; and
-Biotech Basics'. To the uninitiated these would all appear as
-independent sites, yet we now know that three of these are
-acknowledged Bivings projects BioTech Terms; Biotech Knowledge
-Center and Biotech Basics. Two seem to have links to Bivings
-AgBioWorld and CFFAR. One AgCare is a biotech lobby front in
-Canada, and the other the US FDA is seen by the biotech industry
-as an ally.
-Of these, the CFFAR site is the most worrying in that it denigrates
-environmentalists as terrorists. It is the site that Andura wanted
-the scientists to look at. Once you denigrate someone it becomes
-easier to attack them, both physically and mentally and even
-intellectually. Byrne finished by quoting Michael Dell, the
-CEO of Dell computers: 'Think of the internet as a weapon on
-the table. Either you pick it up or your competitor does
-but somebody is going to get killed.' [52]
-===
-is it possible to link companies that promote, finance these practices
-not only to the fate my twitter, google status but also to the 2008
-attempt on my plz swype, the manipulation of google to hide
-violence against green in the EU (nl, uk) as reported in 2014?
-(this is NOT what WE're about, of course)
-===
-Google seems to focus on more friendly
-news, projects, info when it comes
-to green, and avoid govt. criticism
-(info on green activism, victimization
- both physically and in words, status)
-update 01
-Google Openly Advertizes Power to Kick
-Sites off the 'Open' Web in NewsWeek
-Our sites were first affected 2013 ...
-but wait, what's the news (2016-01-25)
-ISIS sites are next - yeah right
-[ non ironic
- so they weren't already? - we bet they were! ]
-ANALYSIS - A WEB 3.0?
-google in the news
-o cnet - AI is important to them
-o newsweek - recently showed of plan to kick sites off the 'open' web
-o zdnet - they plan to put a cross at side of non https sites
-o zdnet - they will enforce safe ads through chrome browser
-o last years brazil, s-am has left the ggl dns universe
-o last month [jan16] govt requested silval to work against rad
-o last week in nyt international - ggl is anti nonprofit
-google's credos
-o dont be evil
-o if you dont want anyone to know,
-should you be doing it in the first place
-terminal thoughts on 70s publishing ideals
-We think for google the end of non-profit Web
-has a certain logic, because it connects
-information to people, or vv.
-It's related to current 'end of audience'-media...
-It's no use to publish non-profit information
-because in this media world people will never
-hear from something they have not already set
-up their devices to hear about - the info consumer
-has 'sourced choice' (fixed sources, choice therein)
-The 70s westcoast ideals of publishing for all has
-grown to be more about connecting one to one,
-using search.
-Search and web is often about facts or context, not an
-extensive attempt at persuasion - that can happen
-on facebook or twitter and for the big social issues,
-like those listed on wikipedia article 'social issues'.
-So, there is no free audience for all,
-not provided by google at least:
-  Google is not in business for the
-  publisher's dreams or some 70s
-  westcoast ideals...
-We're dead, the Web's dead ;-)
-Long Live the Internet [wired.com]
-Greets!
-Westcoast Ideals
-westcoast-ideals.com
-===
-Continued
-(yes, now on 1 page :-)
-June 1st 2016
-the EU initiative 'online civil courage'
-is now being enforced - corporate justice
-as i wrote, has arrived. Twitter punishes
-and seeks purpetrators with a crude algorithm.
-We estimate that in the first two weeks
-a whopping 250.000 europeans had their right
-to free speech violated. If 1 in 10 would have
-counted on social media to promote a company
-and sued for 500.000 euros, we lost 12.5B
-in potential economically, but intellectually
-for certain. After this black day of censorship
-and corporate execution or justice ... we
-(at this site) lost 3 months of tweets and
-traffic to the site. 'Because' we were part of
-its social discussion ... or 'on the panel'
-before clock struck 12 ;).
-Thanks for the promise of 'reach', twitter!
-Or can we say, hey twitter is as basic as
-a telco or ad company. So ...
-this is EU totalitarian media control.
-UPDATE 1
-FINAL CALL - SAVE THE WEB! AVOID A BRAVE NEW ONE
-tweet (with common dreams article 2013 and our podcast (mp4)
-(2m48s) on dutch 'google manipulation' starting january 2016)
-Common dreams vs Google's #controlstate software 2013
-https://commondreams.org/views/2013/05/01/googles-spymasters-are-now-worried-about-your-secrets
-AND my podcast 2m48s january 2016
-https://westcoast-ideals.com/report_feb16_mercy_of_the_beast.mp4
-===
-UPDATE 2
-IT's HAPPENING, BB AWAKENS - IT's CALLED "HISTORIC"
-neuromancer - we linked our minds to phones, web,
-social media, fb, twt, ggl+, ggl search
-cyberpunk & cyberculture - we lost our selves in
-new images of and for our selves - body, cities
-gothic
-cyberia - in the 80s and 90s we grew up with 70s
-westcoast ideals, open free press, media, tech
-half of ppl in west have broadband, always on
-internet access - 2009 twt and fb take off - the wall
--2016 bb - companies, legal persons, start
-acting for ... for the govt in west - m's case dig,
-yelp: ggl "kierewiet", bbc does experiment w fb
-'community standards' that fb enforces, laywer
-feb16: "historic step" in internet, media history
-===
-Met Police considers scrapping 1,000 neighbourhood
-PCSOs By Nick Beake Home Affairs Correspondent,
-BBC News - 9 September 2015
-Read
-Aantal strafzaken bij rechtbanken gedaald
-(The Number of Criminal Cases in Holland Decreases)
-Read
-Gevangenissen in Nederland blijven maar leegstromen
-(Jails in Holland keep getting Emptier)
-Read
-Sociale netwerken en jeugdcriminaliteit: netwerk
-jongeren (Optimistic Feature on Social Networks
-and Youth Criminality)
-Read
-alternative
-druidry & restorative justice
-Read
------------------------------------------------- +
-KEY Q - The Q is... will the internet save society
-from crime when it is answering directly to govt
-or has a one-size-fits-all 'community standard'?
-===
-[more recent, written somewhat less chaotic ...]
-Digital Media Firms, Government & Freedom Nov2015-Jun2016
-An Account of coming to terms with, and documenting, the loss of
-freedom & 'classic' justice in EU since 2013 and Paris Attacks
-issues discussed here ...
-SUMMARY - THE PROBLEM WITH THIS ARGUMENT
-So, what are we trying to tell you?
-o the westcoast ideals of open and free press, media
-  are in danger. the govt is putting direct requests
-  towards silicon valley internet giants to make
-  the web more polite and avoid radicalisation
-o google by ways of its position (search, dns, and
-  its plan to enforce safe ads and https) could
-  create a safe, but NOT OPEN web 3.0
-  (and they'll call this: kicking sites off the
-  /open/ web, strangely enough)
-The trouble is that the facts around which the story
-above revolves is in a way a media story, and partially
-quite technical, and more a digital security story.
-So, we think, hardly anybody sees the story, or
-perceives the story this way (but it's more than
-merely a matter of perception, the web is changing!).
-So, finally (for now), say you are a cnet tech news
-reader... what are signs this is happening?
-o check out the red and blue underlined stories
-  in this bookmark screenshot of cnet stories dec15-feb16
-  there are 4 or 5, plus 3 stories about pages getting
-  kicked off facebook, in which it enforces its
-  community standards regulation, which are very vague
-  and strange in principle, considering facebook is
-  used by a global audience without one-size-fits-all
-  'community standards'.
-o you could, it's up to you, see that MORE stories
-  than in the 3 months before dec15 (sep-nov15)
-  have this 'let us (automatically) purge all
-  aggression, unpoliteness (and terror) for you'-ishness
-THE PROBLEM - A LITTLE PURGE? ANY SIZE A PROBLEM!
-Concerning the web 3.0, we admit it's a small problem.
-We estimate that roughly 10-30 million personal
-freeform paid webpages exist (some webstats), These are mostly
-well-paid, well-positioned individuals. They have been or
-will be hit by google's https enforcement, but they can
-afford to solve the problem and get a certificate.
-The worrying part is the freeform, mostly paid 'activist'
-part of the websites, which we estimate to number 300
-thousand. These are probably profiled to be 'amateur'
-by twitter and probably suffer from both this authority
-profiling and google's https enforcement. A third, 90
-to 100 thousand, might even have been included in the
-thousand deletion of radical accounts on twitter.
-A BIG PROBLEM? - WELL... IT'S CONTROL!
-The fact that just 2 suffer minor measures against 1
-who are deleted would indicate the harshness of such
-a 'politeness purge'. It's an estimate. But the number
-only depends on a chosen degree of acceptable speech.
-And speech /should/ be very free. Only direct threats to
-safety should matter. The rest /is/ state control.
-Govts in the west went from ...
-"hiding behind private companies for
-digital snooping, says UN" tweet
-... to (stealthy) control
-To be continued...
-===
-Already here - 'govt->ggl twt->control' in the news again
--02-27
-Facebook wants to crack down against hate speech on migrants
--01-19
-Facebook confronts online hate in Europe-wide campaign
-Trying to find a balance ... ;)
-Zuckerberg said: "There's not a place for this kind of content on Facebook.
-Learning more about German culture and law has led us to change the
-approach," he said.
-AND
-"Equally important are the support of counter speech, the promotion of
-grassroots movements that fight extremist views
-SO ...
-What's exactly, of people's input is left on fb to... 'counter'??
-To be continued ...
--03-27
-First i kept thinking 'govt is obsolete', trying to grasp
-power like this. Then a switch, i thought that... /is/
-corporatism at work! Does anybody see it this way too?
-Yes, this is a March 27th opinion article in The Guardian
-by Evgeny Morozov ...
-The state has lost control: tech firms now run western politics
-Heavy implications for justice, democracy, society!
-"Many httphosted zeldas and zorks vanished forever in the meantime!"
-Society irreversibly affected. Personal afterthought
-(originally on twitter)
-To be continued ...
--04-20
-A leading journalism advocacy group said
-world press freedom
-deteriorated in 2015, especially in the
-Americas, warning of "a new era of propaganda".
-Read short report on World Press Freedom Index 2015
-To be continued ...
--04-24
-STOP ERDOGAN
-blijf met je klauwen van onze schrijvers
-Since EU's Tusk violated refugees' human rights on 03/03
-by telling people in wars to "stay home", we ...
-don't care much about the EU anymore. Making concessions
-to Turkey doesn't help its image much either
-o france24 reported Turkey as sending refugees back,
-  moving them, jailing them, where some suffered abuse.
-  - basically a nation as unwelcoming to some as the EU itself
-o while turkey is suppressing free press,
-  so how can EU know what it is dealing with it?
-  - that's for sure, isn't it?
-you can go ask around, but the situation is such that
-strong language maybe can't be avoided in all cases
-so such an observer either excludes suppression
-or excludes turkey all together
--04-29
-a formal analysis ...
-why i am so critical
-To be continued ...
--05-10
-Facebook accused of leaving out CONSERVATIVE
-posts (not radical right, but directly right
-off-center) in trending, by an employee
-Facebook accused of leaving out CONSERVATIVE posts
-Facebook denies, for now - (read here)
-For certain, Facebook, and the other tech firms
-put themselves on this track, instigated
-by the French, German and US security-focused
-govs. Trust has been lost for certain. Already.
-Not even 6 months into this gov-silicon
-initiative.
-NB It has something /for/ it, something against.
-All issues have carers, you don't get to change
-all the carers' choice of theirs. A lot of good
-happens this way.
-This site focuses on how limiting expression
-damages progress in society however.
-)
-Freedom of expression could be like online
-privacy ... one should try to help the society
-make workable and realistic compromise.
-If all the techies hide in absolutism, the tech
-will be worse of, and society - Obama said
-something like that at Austin SXSW Con lately.
-)
-Westcoast tries to thread together the developments
-and paint a picture of it, to help transparancy,
-early warning for authoritarianism and things
-like cyberpunk's big business taking over...
-corporatism. We'll try to put up here what seems
-happening, almost happening and what position
-that brings us in, plain english, politically.
-(not: polite, not: safety focused) ... the internet
-can grow new systems, westcoast is not about
-'fuses'. Once there's weapons, jails, central power
-... communication better enter new stages as well.
-(and that's /for/ expression ;) peace & progress!
-To be continued ...
--05-15
-As deletion and censorship incidents pile up this may16...
-Bloomberg radio news at 2016-05-15 19.00cet:
-tide is turning against ISIS both online and on the battle field
-Okay, that may be the military course that the West wants.
-But overhere, knowing what that means, /online/: it means
-sinking to the level of the most aggressive party on the West's
-side: Turkey (violence upon different own parties and media)
-A dutch politician, columnwriter and a publisher had their
-pages removed. Our guess says, based on xp, that is world
-news because these people have some kind of voice anyway
-(also without a facebook page).
-So we estimate:
-[10]min to [100]max times 10 waves [during Turkey's
-actions] times 40 countries
-means 4000 to 40,000 have probably been affected,
-without being involved in any kind of violence.
-That's the dark part of this online victory 'on ISIS'.
-The West's campaign is now based on war, violence
-/and/ suppression, which happens as we speak, according
-to us, in /such measure/ (4000-40,000 people affected).
-We're happy there's a real web to report freely.
-But this is a dark month for freedom.
-To be continued ...
--05-16
-Luckily, the day after having this dark perspective
-on the nature of the web and the role of the tech
-firms, the New York Times international (news paper)
-offered a more positive outlook:
-You could say: the tech firms transformed and
-are no longer a platform (my term) but
-are curators for news and entertainment
-Still means we lost neutrality and democracy though ;)
-To be continued ...
--05-19
-Facebook ... acting (deletion 01, deletion 02)
-on behalf of aggressive ww3 effort partners or just
-not neutral, and highly unpredictable ... does it
-just /act/ like it's censoring a lot on behalf
-of Turkey? ;-)
-Here's more on the algorithms.
-The Real Bias Built In at Facebook - read here (NYTi)
-Algorithm that decides what goes in the feed ...
-values comments and sharing. All this suits cont//ent
-designed to generate either a sense of oversize delight
-or righteous outrage and go viral, hoaxes and
-conspiracies as well as baby pictures, happy
-announcements (that can be liked) and
-important news and discussions
-I can only say New York Times international
-(algorithms, 'admit they're not neutral', and tech
-transformed from platform to 'curator' of news)
-is a lot milder than us from time to time, or
-the Guardian, which posted an opinion item
-which said the gov already lost control to the tech
-firms.
-The state has lost control: tech firms now run
-western politics - read here (Guardian)
-Maybe safest to say is that the democracy
-has been killed in 'big-audience cyberspace' for
-commerce, the illusion of security.
-And that while the idea of 'Europe' was sold to
-its citizens under the promise of Europe to use
-'soft power' to make the world better.
-Now we're /experiencing/ supression and we don't
-know who to blame. The gov, the firms or some
-algorithm. Maybe 'the machines' in all the scifi
-movies were just not transparant enough too? :)
-To be continued ...
--05-20
-Keeping the anti-police violence in France in mind,
-westcoast is not asking for revolution. It's just
-that the internet allows one to get up to speed
-on media freedom. Again, we do believe media freedom,
-new stages in communication is just as fundamental as
-actual freedom of speech. But revolution is too much,
-the internet has an intrinsic freedom, and the force
-behind it is the force of speech. It will not stop.
-The internet gives people an information advantage
-because the line from war/industry (perspectives,
-defamation), to gov to tech firms to /one's own/
-freedom of speech online is short. The line is
-short and feedback on censorship is still doable
-and trustworthy (can you print that 404 Page not
-found for me?, and the likes). Although the matters
-on social networks are more graded (profile,
-algorithm, and provided audience).
-On twitter and facebook, and the web, it is very
-well possible to criticize in the form of quite
-technical or philosophical messages.
-Specific accusations or defamation can lead to
-prosecution, or result in other reactions.
-If your expression of discontent is about how you
-were treated by a certain party, be it religious,
-government, police, military, a relation or a
-criminal? The balance you want to strike is
-between a message that points to you, to resque
-you, and towards them, which endangers you more
-(again).
-We can only say, if you want to be unerasable.
-Don't seek for it on the internet, be that thing
-yourself, alive. Be a living insult towards war
-and force for example. But don't organize.
-Yes. You want to retreat. The rich retreat,
-the old retreat. Get both. Double retreat :).
-Speak from wisdom when you're young, be wise
-enough to sit back later and remember fondly.
-To be continued ...
-===
-Conclusion
-We would want to, but we can't change the nature
-of the Web as it is now:
-o the majority hardly leaves the social web
-o a large part of the rest of the web is
-  accessed through apps and/or is commercial
-The westcoast ideals have faded: the 2013-2016 purge
-Looking at our own stats.... many brazil webpage hits
-indicates that google purged our sweet webpage.
-It has been on the Web since 1995
-Everyone would do their own publishing. Now everyone
-is on the pages of a few commercial social media sites.
-International press freedom is in decline
-since 2013, so is freedom on the social media.
-Communication enters new stages of development.
-The affected freedom is no less fundamental
-than affecting actual speech.
-===
-Some
-conclusions, 2 attempts at some media theory
-& the EU / tech firm agreement of 1st of june 'in the press'
-or ... in one line
-Thanks
-Grtz
-SF
-===
-Update 2016-10-29 A
-Germany's Merkel addressed several of the search and
-censorship questions surrounding tech firms' algoritmes
-(however, not the question of censorship by EU and
-the question of corporate action resulting in limitation
-of free speech and ... freedom of speech differences
-linked to profiling of users by the firms.)
-Merkel wants Facebook and Google's secrets revealed
-Update 2016-10-29 B
-Wired Magazine UK has a 6 page article on the problem
-that social media, comment sections online, etc face.
-It reports on studies into authoritarian regimes, the
-people that get into trouble, trolling, 'troll farms'.
-And Google's project Google Jigsaw and Conversation AI,
-which have the intention to study and automate, resp.
-The mentioned free speech activists and as we already
-were aware even trolling victims often dont want
-censorship, especially not automated. One feared the
-'delete all' option it provides ...
-Wired coins the digital 'justice league' (while we
-coined 'corporate justice'!) ... the implications
-is an erosion of human rights (free speech), sense
-of justice, etc. Also important to discuss is how
-these devs affect sense of justice in people that
-are growing up now and never knew justice classic.
-https://www.wired.com/2016/09/inside-googles-internet-justice-league-ai-powered-war-trolls/
-To be continued
-===
-PS Haven't worked or thought about it all for a while
-  but concerning the old Usenet, I tried it
-  and ran into very clear problems ... and once
-  again can sense some EU censor-trouble there
-  the Usenet is an ancient 'p2p' posting sys, and
-  really not that relevant, but i feel locked up
-  if there's only web and mail (without the
-  option to spam, in some sort of emergency :)
-  This is the crude 1mb report on usenet censor EU
-  (or NL, but it's probably the EU, so... censor EU)
-_samhain16_usenet_post_REPORT_2part_censor_check_confirm_(1mb).zip
-  Thinking again: so the Internet and the Web?
-  ARE the same thing in EU
-  My God - don't know where to turn...
-  So, westcoast-ideals -> we 'live' it
-=== eof
-(73 links in this page)
-Appendix
-The Web 1993-2016 - some web 1.0 and web 2.0 info
-History of the Internet (in 2018 50 years old!)
-History of the Web (in 2018 25 years old!)
-the Web's most popular sites (wiki)
-the Web's most popular tech: WordPress (wiki)
-the 4 greatest, according to westcoast, sites
-ranking below the web giants of the top 25,
-ps. all less than 100m users
-pinterest - my own page
-reddit
-wordpress.com
-tumblr
-some webstats (number of sites & xx)
-===
-CLAIM
-We claim that nowhere on the web
-you find info like there is on
-westcoast ideals - westcoast-ideals.com
-it's critical, technical, political
-and ideological - oriented at peace
-and well documented thinking
-(though it's becoming a bit like
-those webpages with evergrowing
-link-and-comment pairs of before ;)
-=
-MORE SITES WITH A CRITICAL MESSAGE
-Back to westcoast-ideals home top of item
-===
-THESE ARE SOME WELL KNOWN SOURCES
-ifex.org
-indexoncensorhip.org
-globalfreedomofexpression.columbia.edu
-=
-https://www.cpj.org/
-commitee to protect journalists
-https://commondreams.org
-positive, not polarized, with
-quality guest writers
-https://mediashift.org/
-quite decent, but quality info
-https://censorwatch.co.uk/
-lots of media censor watching
-and some general free speech
-news (section broad sheet)
-https://www.csmonitor.com/
-always quality, has been
-on the net forever
-https://opendemocracy.net/
-=
-THESE SITES ARE MORE AMATEUR-ish
-BUT QUITE COOL and worth checking out
-connexions.org
-popularresistance.org
-panarchy.org
-=
-these sites are quite overpolarized
-in war or anti war, imperialism,
-or into conspiracy:
-informationclearinghouse.info
-inconvenienttruths.net
-globalresearch.ca
-seeingtheforest.com
-===
-MORE
-greenteethmm.com
-aim.org
-academia.edu
-thelucidlibertarian.blogspot.com - stopped in 2014
-kractivist.org - unav - Resource Limit Is Reached
-variant.org.uk - free arts & culture
-interaksyon.com - cool, philippino
-washingtonsblog.com
-alternativeway.net - # shop
-trust.org - # foundation
-sras.org - # school of russian and asian studies
-scidev.net - # edu in s-afr
-epic.org - el priv info centre
-=== eof
-Back to westcoast-ideals home top of item
-Statcounter
-View My
-Stats